Spiritual warfare, what is it?

This is a conversation I had with a friend on Windows Messenger yesterday. Greg is not his real name, only the name, spelling mistakes & spacing have been changed [& stuff in square brackets added].
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Greg says: G'day Joe, how's life?

Joe says: Good. I have finished weeks of having mysterious problems & getting nowhere & now things are finally working properly after I reformatted my HDs, reinstalled everything & bought a new modem.

Greg says: Ah yeah, I've just done a format, nothing like a nice clean system. - How's your site going?

Joe says: Good. It was after I last updated it that things went wrong. From my perspective I felt like I was getting a bit of spiritual warfare. I've got more articles & updates partially completed for it.

Greg says: Spiritual warfare? how's that work?

Joe says: I'm a Christian so I believe there is a war between good & evil going on, including in the spiritual realm where there are forces for good (led by Jesus) & forces for bad (led by Satan), so when I put some stuff up about Jesus on my web site without putting in the prayer first the spiritual forces of evil mucked up my computer until I got some friends to pray for me & the situation, a couple of hours after which I got everything working.

Greg says: I thought Christians are against war.

Greg says: When I was young.

Joe says: I am against war in the physical because, as the bible puts it, "our battle is not against flesh & blood but against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." Spiritual warfare isn't about hurting anyone, it's praying for good to be done, doing warfare against evil. Feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, sheltering the homeless, healing (physical & emotional), etc. and praying for good to be done are the way to fight spiritual forces of evil.

Greg says: True to that.

Greg says: But war is war, and with our thought we create the world, so therefore thinking war is creating it.

Joe says: I think capitalism with it's economic rationalism which says everything is about money is the most dangerous force in the world today.

Greg says: True to that.

Joe says: My mum thinks like you do but I'm using words to describe something that's not like physical warfare because they're the words the bible uses & hence widely used by Christians.

Greg says: Which in turn is dangerous due to open interpretation don't you think?

Joe says: OK, here's something that might stretch your imagination. I believe Jesus rose from the dead, so he's still alive, but he went up into heaven after about 30 days of appearing to over 500 men (women weren't legal wittnesses in those days & we don't know how many of them he appeared to), & sent his spirit which lives inside everyone who wants it & helps us understand the bible.

Greg says: That's very fundamental though.

Joe says: So understanding the bible isn't about being the best bible scholar (although knowledge is helpful), but about being in touch with God.

Greg says: I assume that would have to have some sort of deeper meaning as we all know that's not physically possible.

Joe says: Except that Jesus is God in human form and is all powerful. People have been raised from the dead. It happens in hospitals all the time but it also happens miraculously, it just doesn't get into the newspapers all that much.

Joe says: People it happens to aren't interested in proving it happens so they don't go seeking publicity.

Greg says: People have not been raised from the dead, I know people who claim they were, medical science was what happened, - so I assume you believe God/Jesus controls medical science?

Greg says: My uncle, RIP, was 'raised' from the dead. but he wasn't human afterwards.

Greg says: His spirit had left the body entirely.

Joe says: I believe medical science is a gift from God but I have heard of incidents that defy medical explanations.

Joe says: What do you mean raised, but without a spirit?

Greg says: I personally defy medical explanations.

Greg says: That's no feat.

Greg says: He was revived after a heart attack, with no spirit or awareness.

Joe says: In a coma?

Greg says: Sort of.

Greg says: He was dead.

Joe says: But his heart was still beating?

Greg says: Not till medical science stepped in.

Greg says: I gotta go, but I'll not be far off and will be back soon.

Joe says: But after medical science stepped in they got his heart beating again but he didn't regain consciousness?

Greg says: Back, nope, He was a Christian Brother, His master called I guess.

Joe says: I don't get what you mean by he was revived but his spirit had left. Perhaps I should leave it for a face to face discussion sometime.

Greg says: I wasn't there to see him, I can't really say, but from what I'm told he was dead 45 minutes or so before they restarted his heart, but the brain, not working.

Joe says: OK.

Joe says: I've heard of cases where people have been revived & gone on to live normal lives after a few days & I have a friend who spent 2 hours without breathing (about half at the bottom of a dam & half with his father giving him mouth to mouth in the ambulance on the way to hospital) who is fine.

Greg says: So he wasn't dead, just unconscious?

Joe says: Yes.

Joe says: It's not the same as being revived from the dead but he's the only one I know personally except that my mum, dad & brother were all clinically dead momentarily and revived while in hospitals. I'm the only one in my family who hasn't been clinically dead.

Greg says: Still, it's not raised from the dead, or anything like that.

Joe says: No.

Greg says: So the return of Christ, in a non-literal sense, what does it mean?

Joe says: I think it is literal.

Greg says: Then what is the spiritual equivalent?

Joe says: But even if you didn't want to believe his body came back to life (although all the apostles died hideously because they say that he did, so I doubt they were bluffing) you could still believe that his spirit is in the world today & that we are able to communicate with it.

Greg says: I do in a way, I just don't believe it is 'his' - I have trouble with the concept that someone who lived so long ago with no knowledge of our times is still seen as someone in the know.

Joe says: I, & a lot of other people, believe that (1) because his spirit is still around, he's still in touch, (2) his spirit was from the beginning of creation so he knows a lot of stuff from before he came to earth, & (3) his spirit is where we get our good ideas from, so he is the source of our medical knowledge, scientific knowledge etc.

Greg says: That's so far out.

Greg says: So where do all the bad ideas come from?

Greg says: The devil?

Joe says: Everything that isn't good comes from taking something that is good and misusing it. For example, I believe sex is good but then someone goes and misuses it and that is bad.

Greg says: So the Devil has just as much of a spirit floating around as Christ?

Greg says: That makes sense

Greg says: Hence the wars.

Joe says: The devil tempts people to do bad, but it's still people not doing things God's way that is bad.

Greg says: That doesn't make sense, E.g. terrorism as it's on the table, is bad. They claim they work for god, just as we do... - 2 wrongs don't make a right.

Joe says: I believe the story of Adam & Eve means people chose to make their own decisions (the tree of the knowledge of good & evil) instead of trusting God & doing things God's way.

Greg says: What is 'God's Way'?

Joe says: I believe Jesus is the ultimate example of a good person (as well as being God incarnate), so if I do something claiming I am doing it for God but it's unlike Jesus then I'm just fooling myself & doing evil.

Greg says: Like George W Bush's God's Way or Ghandi's God's Way?

Joe says: Ghandhi acted a lot more like Jesus than George Bush does. Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world" & ran away & hid when they tried to make him king by force.

Greg says: No s**t. I would too.

Greg says: Idiots.

Joe says: He healed the sick, fed the hungry, kept company with people who were rejected like prostitutes, publicans, tax collectors & leprosy victims.

Greg says: Exactly my point, open to interpretation, dangerous to be taking it on a literal level.

Joe says: The point was a really big group wanted to make him king & he could have done it if he wanted to, but Jesus' warfare, or spiritual warfare, is to heal the sick, feed the hungry, make people feel better about themselves etc.

Joe says: To make the world a better place is doing the work of the kingdom of God, or in other words the kingdom of Jesus.

Greg says: -And when that goal is achieved what does he do?

Greg says: I can never be achieved as the philosophy perpetuates itself.

Joe says: That's in books like Revelation in the future. He comes back in physical form (although not with an ordinary body like ours are now), makes a new heaven & a new earth & we live with him.

Greg says: No s**t?

Greg says: Wow.

Joe says: There is a time limit for evil in the world.

Greg says: I don't think so, just that world.

Joe says: That's hell, being separated from God because someone wanted to do evil rather than be with God which requires us to be good.

Greg says: That's so exclusive.

Greg says: As a philosophy.

Joe says: That's a pretty pessimistic view of eternity if you think evil is just going to keep going on & on.

Greg says: I don't believe in eternity, except as a concept, But I certainly don't believe eternity has anything to do with what we are experiencing now.

Joe says: Why is it exclusive? Anyone who wants what is good, wants to be with God, gets to; & anyone who wants to do evil, who doesn't like what God is (whose character is seen in Jesus) gets to stay away from him, in the end.

Greg says: If that were true we'd all be going to hell... and I can't believe that.

Greg says: Who defines what is good? Each religion has different ideas on that, you can't all be right.

Joe says: It's not about the things we do that are mistakes. One difference between Christianity & every other religion in the world is that everything else says we must make ourselves good enough for God (or to be a god), but Christianity (when it's preached correctly) says we can't do it so God made a way for it to happen, all's we have to do is ask.

Joe says: Pretty well every religion is on about looking after the needy & being a peacemaker (except for fundamentalists, who all have one thing in common, they ignore the fundamentals of their religion).

Greg says: That just sounds like laying the blame if and when it doesn't work out.

Greg says: So it's an ideal? overall, look after the weak, make them strong, so they can do what? Look after the weak?

Joe says: It works like this, God's spirit works in people to do good, some people accept it (I believe Ghandhi went with the spirit of God a lot) & some people fight it. Some people want what is good but make mistakes along the way, for which we have all the forgiveness we need because of the work Jesus did on the cross, but some people don't want what is good & resist God more & more & go and start wars because the partly own companies that end up making a huge killing (in both senses) & will end up with what they want eventually, separation from God(which is hell).

Greg says: That's so freaky dude.

Greg says: So fundamental.

Greg says: LOL.

Greg says: So how come we're all living with it here?

Joe says: I believe some things which are associated with fundamentalists, like I believe the bible & stuff, but the greatest commandment (to quote the bible) is to love God with all your heart, mind, soul & strength.

Greg says: Or is this 'neutral ground'? LOL.

Joe says: This is the time that evil is allowed to exist until God sorts out those who want to be with him from those that don't (and by that I don't mean people who say with their mouths that they don't believe in God but show by their lives that God is working through them all the time).

Greg says: -Yes, I understand that all too well, which is why in that case - if judged by your lives, as Christians, when it's time, I don't as many of you will be going to God's new world as you think, as the fundamental and literal interpretations of the bible are fundamentally hypocritical and perpetuate the evil you claim you are fighting.

Greg says: I don't think* - I'm not saying you personally, as you say it's not what you believe it's how you live.

Joe says: The bible says "Love God with all your heart & all your mind & all your soul & all your strength. And the second is like it, love your neighbour as yourself. These sum up the law & the commandments." & "A new commandment I give unto you, love one another as I have loved you." There are other verses that say the entire law (or bible) is summed up by loving each other. People who call themselves fundamentalists & preach hatred are disobeying the fundamentals of their religion whether they are fundamentalist Christians, Muslims or Buddhists (rare, but they do exist). Or fundamentalist Jews (those two laws about loving God & your neighbour are from the part of the bible the Jews use [as well as Christians]).

Greg says: Love God, what is that?

Greg says: Is that everything?

Joe says: To love God is to do things God's way, to love people & to do good. And to get God's help to do this at every opportunity.

Greg says: All these holes, with all these patches, The structure is flawed to start with to need so many patches and excuses.

Joe says: That's why we need Jesus

Greg says: He's not going to do much for you, God helps those who help them selves... God was around way before Jesus, Jesus can't possibly be god in the reality of history, only in a literal sense can Jesus 'be god' and that in itself is quite an arrogant view that 1 man was so special 'God' picked him to take over...

Greg says: Men picked Jesus to take the place of God.

Greg says: Evil men.

Joe says: Not that Jesus was, then God picked him. God was, decided to come to earth in human form & that form was the man Jesus who was always going to be God in human form before he was conceived.

Joe says: Not everyone who uses the name of Jesus does evil. Most charities in the world are staffed by Christians.

Greg says: Not everyone who uses the name Jesus does good... very rare cases.

Joe says: They're not as rare as they are out of the public eye, whereas the people who do evil are in the public eye a lot more.

Greg says: That's true, but the people doing evil aren't in the public eye all the time either, If you're talking about general media, we just forget that as I think we both know that's all a distraction from what's really going on anyway... No I'm talking about overall. In a very broad sense.

Greg says: Global, historical, past present and into the future, not eternal future, just the religious climate of our knowledge in for our lifetime and maybe a little beyond.

Joe says: I think the forces of evil have a lot of influence over the media, hence it becomes a tool for discouraging people & doing evil in itself. Generally media is owned by people who worship money & have no qualms about robbing people of quality of life & life itself to get it, so more of what is evil gets in than what is good. Also bad news gets 20% more attention & when papers have tried printing only good news they went broke.

Greg says: That comes down to the social structure of our society rather than our religious values as a society though don't you think?

Joe says: The fabric of our society is the people who we are that is shaped by our values. Society's values may not always come directly from 'religious beliefs' (although often they do), but what those religious beliefs are describing is going on in everyone's heart, some just know what they're doing & can put a name on it, some can't, & some lie about the name in which they do what they do.

Greg says: Ah, so lying, that'd be something that wouldn't be to good. Sensitive issues as everyone does it to some degree, Either to themselves or to others, on many levels. - But again, that is a human concept, created and governed by humans, you don't need religion to be truthful or deceitful.

Greg says: As it is in the eye of the beholder. The singular outcome is not possible until everyone thinks the same thing at the same time.

Greg says: Very conformist.

Joe says: No, but religion is about why where truthful or deceitful. For example I would say that someone who is truthful is going with God & someone who isn't is not going with God. It's a religious statement about the motives of everyone. It's not just those who believe in religion who are affected by it, but from my perspective everyone is making decisions from religious motives.

Greg says: That's sensible.

Greg says: I like that.

Joe says: Wow! What a discussion!

Greg says: It's the same observation I have, but yeah, From a point of view from someone who 'doesn't believe in religion' - (That's not the case, I have no choice but to believe in it as I know it exists in many forms, I don't question the existence of religion.) I question the effects it has on people as I observe religion as a disability, not unlike my physical one, but religion in many forms is.

Greg says: Maybe quite like it in a spiritual sense, restricting.

Joe says: I believe that religion which is a disability is where to try to make ourselves good enough for God. If we just accept God's help in making us all we can be it's not restricting or a disability, although there will still be mistakes along the way.

Greg says: Progress and the like?

Greg says: Yes, it's a hard call even from the sidelines.

Joe says: What about progress?

Greg says: Accepting God's will, where does that come from?

Joe says: That's our free will.

Greg says: So if it's ours, it's not god's.

Greg says: I have free will either accepting or rejecting god, I still have free will.

Joe says: It's our choice, our free will, whether we will work with or against God's will.

Joe says: Yes.

Joe says: Hence there is suffering because some people have chosen to inflict suffering of their own free will.

Greg says: The problem here is my definition of God. I can't see the creationist point of view as being plausible.

Joe says: Why not?

Greg says: Facts.

Greg says: Science.

Greg says: Logical Theory.

Joe says: What facts? If you mean evolution, plenty of people believe in God & evolution, they believe that was God's method.

Joe says: Logic always falls flat on it's face if you don't have all the information, which none of us
have.

Greg says: Basic maths, Facts+Science+Logical Theory dictate the creationist theory invalid.

Joe says: Greg, I would like to post a copy of this discussion one my web site after removing your name & email if that's OK with you.

Greg says: LOL. I dunno, it's pretty all over the place.

Joe says: I have a web diary that's just for things like this.
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Blessings,
Joe :-)